Dialogues of Plato - MobileReference [379]
To us, clearly.
And we shall be allowed to throw in salt by handfuls, whereas the son willnot be allowed to put in as much as he can take up between his fingers?
Of course.
Or suppose again that the son has bad eyes, will he allow him, or will henot allow him, to touch his own eyes if he thinks that he has no knowledgeof medicine?
He will not allow him.
Whereas, if he supposes us to have a knowledge of medicine, he will allowus to do what we like with him--even to open the eyes wide and sprinkleashes upon them, because he supposes that we know what is best?
That is true.
And everything in which we appear to him to be wiser than himself or hisson he will commit to us?
That is very true, Socrates, he replied.
Then now, my dear Lysis, I said, you perceive that in things which we knowevery one will trust us,--Hellenes and barbarians, men and women,--and wemay do as we please about them, and no one will like to interfere with us;we shall be free, and masters of others; and these things will be reallyours, for we shall be benefited by them. But in things of which we have nounderstanding, no one will trust us to do as seems good to us--they willhinder us as far as they can; and not only strangers, but father andmother, and the friend, if there be one, who is dearer still, will alsohinder us; and we shall be subject to others; and these things will not beours, for we shall not be benefited by them. Do you agree?
He assented.
And shall we be friends to others, and will any others love us, in as faras we are useless to them?
Certainly not.
Neither can your father or mother love you, nor can anybody love anybodyelse, in so far as they are useless to them?
No.
And therefore, my boy, if you are wise, all men will be your friends andkindred, for you will be useful and good; but if you are not wise, neitherfather, nor mother, nor kindred, nor any one else, will be your friends. And in matters of which you have as yet no knowledge, can you have anyconceit of knowledge?
That is impossible, he replied.
And you, Lysis, if you require a teacher, have not yet attained to wisdom.
True.
And therefore you are not conceited, having nothing of which to beconceited.
Indeed, Socrates, I think not.
When I heard him say this, I turned to Hippothales, and was very nearlymaking a blunder, for I was going to say to him: That is the way,Hippothales, in which you should talk to your beloved, humbling andlowering him, and not as you do, puffing him up and spoiling him. But Isaw that he was in great excitement and confusion at what had been said,and I remembered that, although he was in the neighbourhood, he did notwant to be seen by Lysis; so upon second thoughts I refrained.
In the meantime Menexenus came back and sat down in his place by Lysis; andLysis, in a childish and affectionate manner, whispered privately in myear, so that Menexenus should not hear: Do, Socrates, tell Menexenus whatyou have been telling me.
Suppose that you tell him yourself, Lysis, I replied; for I am sure thatyou were attending.
Certainly, he replied.
Try, then, to remember the words, and be as exact as you can in repeatingthem to him, and if you have forgotten anything, ask me again the next timethat you see me.
I will be sure to do so, Socrates; but go on telling him something new, andlet me hear, as long as I am allowed to stay.
I certainly cannot refuse, I said, since you ask me; but then, as you know,Menexenus is very pugnacious, and therefore you must come to the rescue ifhe attempts to upset me.
Yes, indeed, he said; he is very pugnacious, and that is the reason why Iwant you to argue with him.
That I may make a fool of myself?
No, indeed, he said; but I want you to put him down.
That is no easy matter, I replied; for he is a terrible fellow--a pupil ofCtesippus. And there is Ctesippus himself: do you see him?
Never mind, Socrates, you shall argue with him.
Well, I suppose that I must, I replied.
Hereupon Ctesippus complained that we were talking