Gorgias [11]
Pol. I did. Soc. Well then, I say to you that here are two questions in one, and I will answer both of them. And I tell you, Polus, that rhetoricians and tyrants have the least possible power in states, as I was just now saying; for they do literally nothing which they will, but only what they think best. Pol. And is not that a great power? Soc. Polus has already said the reverse. Soc. No, by the great-what do you call him?-not you, for you say that power is a good to him who has the power. Pol. I do. Soc. And would you maintain that if a fool does what he think best, this is a good, and would you call this great power? Pol. I should not. Soc. Then you must prove that the rhetorician is not a fool, and that rhetoric is an art and not a flattery-and so you will have refuted me; but if you leave me unrefuted, why, the rhetoricians who do what they think best in states, and the tyrants, will have nothing upon which to congratulate themselves, if as you say, power be indeed a good, admitting at the same time that what is done without sense is an evil. Pol. Yes; I admit that. Soc. How then can the rhetoricians or the tyrants have great power in states, unless Polus can refute Socrates, and prove to him that they do as they will? Pol. This fellow- Soc. I say that they do not do as they will-now refute me. Pol. Why, have you not already said that they do as they think best? Soc. And I say so still. Pol. Then surely they do as they will? Soc. I deny it. Pol. But they do what they think best? Soc. Aye. Pol. That, Socrates, is monstrous and absurd. Soc. Good words, good Polus, as I may say in your own peculiar style; but if you have any questions to ask of me, either prove that I am in error or give the answer yourself. Pol. Very well, I am willing to answer that I may know what you mean. Soc. Do men appear to you to will that which they do, or to will that further end for the sake of which they do a thing? when they take medicine, for example, at the bidding of a physician, do they will the drinking of the medicine which is painful, or the health for the sake of which they drink? Pol. Clearly, the health. Soc. And when men go on a voyage or engage in business, they do not will that which they are doing at the time; for who would desire to take the risk of a voyage or the trouble of business?-But they will, to have the wealth for the sake of which they go on a voyage. Pol. Certainly. Soc. And is not this universally true? If a man does something for the sake of something else, he wills not that which he does, but that for the sake of which he does it. Pol. Yes. Soc. And are not all things either good or evil, or intermediate and indifferent? Pol. To be sure, Socrates. Soc. Wisdom and health and wealth and the like you would call goods, and their opposites evils? Pol. I should. Soc. And the things which are neither good nor evil, and which partake sometimes of the nature of good and at other times of evil, or of neither, are such as sitting, walking, running, sailing; or, again, wood, stones, and the like:-these are the things which you call neither good nor evil? Pol. Exactly so. Soc. Are these indifferent things done for the sake of the good, or the good for the sake of the indifferent? Pol. Clearly, the indifferent for the sake of the good. Soc. When we walk we walk for the sake of the good, and under the idea that it is better to walk, and when we stand we stand equally for the sake of the good? Pol. Yes. Soc. And when we kill a man we kill him or exile him or despoil him of his goods, because, as we think, it will conduce to our good? Pol. Certainly. Soc. Men who do any of these things do them for the sake of the good? Pol. Yes. Soc. And did we not admit that in doing something for the sake of something else, we do not will those things which we do, but that other thing for the sake of which we do them? Pol. Most true. Soc. Then we do not will simply to kill a man or to exile him or to despoil him of his goods, but we will to do that which