THEAETETUS [24]
being is one and self-contained, and has
no place which to move. What shall we do, friend, with all these
people; for, advancing step by step, we have imperceptibly got between
the combatants, and, unless we can protect our retreat, we shall pay
the penalty of our rashness-like the players in the palaestra who
are caught upon the line, and are dragged different ways by the two
parties. Therefore I think that we had better begin by considering
those whom we first accosted, "the river-gods," and, if we find any
truth in them, we will help them to pull us over, and try to get
away from the others. But if the partisans of "the whole" appear to
speak more truly, we will fly off from the party which would move
the immovable, to them. And if I find that neither of them have
anything reasonable to say, we shall be in a ridiculous position,
having so great a conceit of our own poor opinion and rejecting that
of ancient and famous men. O Theodorus, do you think that there is any
use in proceeding when the danger is so great?
Theod. Nay, Socrates, not to examine thoroughly what the two parties
have to say would be quite intolerable.
Soc. Then examine we must, since you, who were so reluctant. to
begin, are so eager to proceed. The nature of motion appears to be the
question with which we begin. What do they mean when they say that all
things are in motion? Is there only one kind of motion, or, as I
rather incline to think, two? should like to have your opinion upon
this point in addition to my own, that I may err, if I must err, in
your company; tell me, then, when a thing changes from one place to
another, or goes round in the same place, is not that what is called
motion?
Theod. Yes.
Soc. Here then we have one kind of motion. But when a thing,
remaining on the same spot, grows old, or becomes black from being
white, or hard from being soft, or undergoes any other change, may not
this be properly called motion of another kind?
Theod. I think so.
Soc. Say rather that it must be so. Of motion then there are these
two kinds, "change," and "motion in place."
Theod. You are right.
Soc. And now, having made this distinction, let us address ourselves
to those who say that all is motion, and ask them whether all things
according to them have the two kinds of motion, and are changed as
well as move in place, or is one thing moved in both ways, and another
in one only?
Theod. Indeed, I do not know what to answer; but I think they
would say that all things are moved in both ways.
Soc. Yes, comrade; for, if not, they would have to say that the same
things are in motion and at rest, and there would be no more truth
in saying that all things are in motion, than that all things are at
rest.
Theod. To be sure.
Soc. And if they are to be in motion, and nothing is to be devoid of
motion, all things must always have every sort of motion?
Theod. Most true.
Soc. Consider a further point: did we not understand them to explain
the generation of heat, whiteness, or anything else, in some such
manner as the following:-were they not saying that each of them is
moving between the agent and the patient, together with a
perception, and that the patient ceases to be a perceiving power and
becomes a percipient, and the agent a quale instead of a quality? I
suspect that quality may appear a strange and uncouth term to you, and
that you do not understand the abstract expression. Then I will take
concrete instances: I mean to say that the producing power or agent
becomes neither heat nor whiteness but hot and white, and the like
of other things. For I must repeat what I said before, that neither
the agent nor patient have any absolute existence, but when they
come together and generate sensations and their objects, the one
becomes a thing a certain quality, and the other a percipient. You
remember?
Theod. Of course.
Soc. We may leave the details of their theory unexamined, but we
must not forget to
no place which to move. What shall we do, friend, with all these
people; for, advancing step by step, we have imperceptibly got between
the combatants, and, unless we can protect our retreat, we shall pay
the penalty of our rashness-like the players in the palaestra who
are caught upon the line, and are dragged different ways by the two
parties. Therefore I think that we had better begin by considering
those whom we first accosted, "the river-gods," and, if we find any
truth in them, we will help them to pull us over, and try to get
away from the others. But if the partisans of "the whole" appear to
speak more truly, we will fly off from the party which would move
the immovable, to them. And if I find that neither of them have
anything reasonable to say, we shall be in a ridiculous position,
having so great a conceit of our own poor opinion and rejecting that
of ancient and famous men. O Theodorus, do you think that there is any
use in proceeding when the danger is so great?
Theod. Nay, Socrates, not to examine thoroughly what the two parties
have to say would be quite intolerable.
Soc. Then examine we must, since you, who were so reluctant. to
begin, are so eager to proceed. The nature of motion appears to be the
question with which we begin. What do they mean when they say that all
things are in motion? Is there only one kind of motion, or, as I
rather incline to think, two? should like to have your opinion upon
this point in addition to my own, that I may err, if I must err, in
your company; tell me, then, when a thing changes from one place to
another, or goes round in the same place, is not that what is called
motion?
Theod. Yes.
Soc. Here then we have one kind of motion. But when a thing,
remaining on the same spot, grows old, or becomes black from being
white, or hard from being soft, or undergoes any other change, may not
this be properly called motion of another kind?
Theod. I think so.
Soc. Say rather that it must be so. Of motion then there are these
two kinds, "change," and "motion in place."
Theod. You are right.
Soc. And now, having made this distinction, let us address ourselves
to those who say that all is motion, and ask them whether all things
according to them have the two kinds of motion, and are changed as
well as move in place, or is one thing moved in both ways, and another
in one only?
Theod. Indeed, I do not know what to answer; but I think they
would say that all things are moved in both ways.
Soc. Yes, comrade; for, if not, they would have to say that the same
things are in motion and at rest, and there would be no more truth
in saying that all things are in motion, than that all things are at
rest.
Theod. To be sure.
Soc. And if they are to be in motion, and nothing is to be devoid of
motion, all things must always have every sort of motion?
Theod. Most true.
Soc. Consider a further point: did we not understand them to explain
the generation of heat, whiteness, or anything else, in some such
manner as the following:-were they not saying that each of them is
moving between the agent and the patient, together with a
perception, and that the patient ceases to be a perceiving power and
becomes a percipient, and the agent a quale instead of a quality? I
suspect that quality may appear a strange and uncouth term to you, and
that you do not understand the abstract expression. Then I will take
concrete instances: I mean to say that the producing power or agent
becomes neither heat nor whiteness but hot and white, and the like
of other things. For I must repeat what I said before, that neither
the agent nor patient have any absolute existence, but when they
come together and generate sensations and their objects, the one
becomes a thing a certain quality, and the other a percipient. You
remember?
Theod. Of course.
Soc. We may leave the details of their theory unexamined, but we
must not forget to