THEAETETUS [23]
best refutation of him, Socrates; although he
is also caught when he ascribes truth to the opinions of others, who
give the lie direct to his own opinion.
Soc. There are many ways, Theodorus, in which the doctrine that
every opinion of: every man is true may be refuted; but there is
more difficulty, in proving that states of feeling, which are
present to a man, and out of which arise sensations and opinions in
accordance with them, are also untrue. And very likely I have been
talking nonsense about them; for they may be unassailable, and those
who say that there is clear evidence of them, and that they are
matters of knowledge, may probably be right; in which case our
friend Theaetetus was not so far from the mark when he identified
perception and knowledge. And therefore let us draw nearer, as the
advocate of Protagoras desires; and the truth of the universal flux
a ring: is the theory sound or not? at any rate, no small war is
raging about it, and there are combination not a few.
Theod. No small, war, indeed, for in most the sect makes rapid
strides, the disciples of Heracleitus are most energetic. upholders of
the doctrine.
Soc. Then we are the more bound, my dear Theodorus, to examine the
question from the foundation as it is set forth by themselves.
Theod. Certainly we are. About these speculations of Heracleitus,
which, as you say, are as old as Homer, or even older still, the
Ephesians themselves, who profess to know them, are downright mad, and
you cannot talk with them on the subject. For, in accordance with
their text-books, they are always in motion; but as for dwelling
upon an argument or a question, and quietly asking and answering in
turn, they can no more do so than they can fly; or rather, the
determination of these fellows not to have a particle of rest in
them is more than the utmost powers of negation can express. If you
ask any of them a question, he will produce, as from a quiver, sayings
brief and dark, and shoot them at you; and if you inquire the reason
of what he has said, you will be hit by some other newfangled word,
and will make no way with any of them, nor they with one another;
their great care is, not to allow of any settled principle either in
their arguments or in their minds, conceiving, as I imagine, that
any such principle would be stationary; for they are at war with the
stationary, and do what they can to drive it out everywhere.
Soc. I suppose, Theodorus, that you have only seen them when they
were fighting, and have never stayed with them in time of peace, for
they are no friends of yours; and their peace doctrines are only
communicated by them at leisure, as I imagine, to those disciples of
theirs whom they want to make like themselves.
Theod. Disciples! my good sir, they have none; men of their sort are
not one another's disciples, but they grow up at their own sweet will,
and get their inspiration anywhere, each of them saying of his
neighbour that he knows nothing. Fro these men, then, as I was going
to remark, you will never get a reason, whether with their will or
without their will; we must take the question out of their hands,
and make the analysis ourselves, as if we were doing geometrical
problem.
Soc. Quite right too; but as touching the aforesaid problem, have we
not heard from the ancients, who concealed their wisdom from the
many in poetical figures, that Oceanus and Tethys, the origin of all
things, are streams, and that nothing is at rest? And now the moderns,
in their superior wisdom, have declared the same openly, that the
cobbler too may hear and learn of them, and no longer foolishly
imagine that some things are at rest and others in motion-having
learned that all is motion, he will duly honour his teachers. I had
almost forgotten the opposite doctrine, Theodorus,
Alone Being remains unmoved, which is the name for the all.
This is the language of Parmenides, Melissus, and their followers, who
stoutly maintain that all
is also caught when he ascribes truth to the opinions of others, who
give the lie direct to his own opinion.
Soc. There are many ways, Theodorus, in which the doctrine that
every opinion of: every man is true may be refuted; but there is
more difficulty, in proving that states of feeling, which are
present to a man, and out of which arise sensations and opinions in
accordance with them, are also untrue. And very likely I have been
talking nonsense about them; for they may be unassailable, and those
who say that there is clear evidence of them, and that they are
matters of knowledge, may probably be right; in which case our
friend Theaetetus was not so far from the mark when he identified
perception and knowledge. And therefore let us draw nearer, as the
advocate of Protagoras desires; and the truth of the universal flux
a ring: is the theory sound or not? at any rate, no small war is
raging about it, and there are combination not a few.
Theod. No small, war, indeed, for in most the sect makes rapid
strides, the disciples of Heracleitus are most energetic. upholders of
the doctrine.
Soc. Then we are the more bound, my dear Theodorus, to examine the
question from the foundation as it is set forth by themselves.
Theod. Certainly we are. About these speculations of Heracleitus,
which, as you say, are as old as Homer, or even older still, the
Ephesians themselves, who profess to know them, are downright mad, and
you cannot talk with them on the subject. For, in accordance with
their text-books, they are always in motion; but as for dwelling
upon an argument or a question, and quietly asking and answering in
turn, they can no more do so than they can fly; or rather, the
determination of these fellows not to have a particle of rest in
them is more than the utmost powers of negation can express. If you
ask any of them a question, he will produce, as from a quiver, sayings
brief and dark, and shoot them at you; and if you inquire the reason
of what he has said, you will be hit by some other newfangled word,
and will make no way with any of them, nor they with one another;
their great care is, not to allow of any settled principle either in
their arguments or in their minds, conceiving, as I imagine, that
any such principle would be stationary; for they are at war with the
stationary, and do what they can to drive it out everywhere.
Soc. I suppose, Theodorus, that you have only seen them when they
were fighting, and have never stayed with them in time of peace, for
they are no friends of yours; and their peace doctrines are only
communicated by them at leisure, as I imagine, to those disciples of
theirs whom they want to make like themselves.
Theod. Disciples! my good sir, they have none; men of their sort are
not one another's disciples, but they grow up at their own sweet will,
and get their inspiration anywhere, each of them saying of his
neighbour that he knows nothing. Fro these men, then, as I was going
to remark, you will never get a reason, whether with their will or
without their will; we must take the question out of their hands,
and make the analysis ourselves, as if we were doing geometrical
problem.
Soc. Quite right too; but as touching the aforesaid problem, have we
not heard from the ancients, who concealed their wisdom from the
many in poetical figures, that Oceanus and Tethys, the origin of all
things, are streams, and that nothing is at rest? And now the moderns,
in their superior wisdom, have declared the same openly, that the
cobbler too may hear and learn of them, and no longer foolishly
imagine that some things are at rest and others in motion-having
learned that all is motion, he will duly honour his teachers. I had
almost forgotten the opposite doctrine, Theodorus,
Alone Being remains unmoved, which is the name for the all.
This is the language of Parmenides, Melissus, and their followers, who
stoutly maintain that all